VIDEO: Penny Wong calls Yang Hengjun’s death sentence ‘harrowing’

SARAH FERGUSON, PRESENTER:  Penny Wong, welcome to 7.30

PENNY WONG, FOREIGN MINISTER:  Good to be with you.

SARAH FERGUSON:  We saw a very different scene to the one we saw there. Why has it taken so long to have a PNG Prime Minister address us?

PENNY WONG:  That's probably a question about our history, isn't it, but what I can say is I thought that was a wonderful speech today, a really important moment for our nation as well as for Papua New Guinea.

It was gracious and respectful and taught us something about who we are, taught us about Papua New Guinea and it taught us about our shared history. So I thought it is the beginning of a different stage in our relationship and I was very humbled to be witness to it.

SARAH FERGUSON:  Now, only a few months ago, we understand that PNG was reportedly considering an offer from the Chinese to assist with policing, I think is the phrase that was used. How would Australia respond to Chinese police running operations with our closest neighbour?

PENNY WONG:  Well, the first point I would make is that the Foreign Minister Justin Tkatchenko has clarified those remarks, but more broadly, I think I said at the National Press Club last year, China will continue to be China and it is a great power and will continue to assert its interests and utilise its power to press for those interests, and clearly it sees one of those interests as engaging in the security sector in the Pacific, including policing.

We saw under the Morrison government the Solomon Islands arrangement and we continue to see Chinese police in the Solomon Islands. Australia's position is that the stability of the Pacific is best served by these security needs being provided within the Pacific family.

SARAH FERGUSON:  Let me talk some more about China, Dr Yang Hengjun's suspended sentence was really a frightening development. Have you spoke to his family?

PENNY WONG:  Not as yet. I obviously have previously and remain very willing to engage when they are ready, and I can imagine they are extremely distressed. As I said on the day, that it was harrowing news.

SARAH FERGUSON:  Were you blindsided by it?

PENNY WONG:  Look, I think we made clear the verdict we thought was appalling. As the Prime Minister said, we were outraged, and we will advocate, continue to advocate for that and be frank in our views about that sentence, and we will not forget Dr Yang.

SARAH FERGUSON:  Now, at the same time there are, I think the question is: What is this sentence trying to do?

There has clearly been some reporting in China that there are harsher sentences particularly within the apparatus of the Chinese security services so is this exceptionally hard sentence also about sending a message to people who would criticise the regime, or is it in any way targeted at Australia?

Do you know any more about why it came about?

PENNY WONG:  I don't think it's helpful to Dr Yang or necessarily for Australia's national interests for the foreign minister to engage in that sort of, those sorts of hypotheticals.

What I would say is this: It is obviously a very different legal system. We, in Australia have a view about the sentence. We think it is appalling, and we have expressed that view very clearly.

We will obviously continue to engage to support Dr Yang, provide him with consular support, make representations about his condition and his medical treatment and so forth.

SARAH FERGUSON:  You said it was harrowing. It is not language we are used to hearing from you?

PENNY WONG:  Well, it was.

SARAH FERGUSON:  It was harrowing.

PENNY WONG:  I think so. I think we all know, Australians have a view about the death penalty and to have an Australian subject to a death, a suspended death penalty, I think people were shocked.

SARAH FERGUSON:  Let me move onto the Middle East. Overnight Israel has rejected Hamas' demand for a four-and-a-half-month ceasefire to accompany any potential hostage release. Did that decision by Israel surprise you?

PENNY WONG:  Look, what I would say is the international community has made its view clear. I think 153 countries, including Australia, voted for an immediate humanitarian ceasefire.

We want the hostages returned, we want humanitarian aid in, we want civilian lives protected.

So I've seen what Tony Blinken has said. We have been supporting what they and others in the region, including the Qataris and other countries of the region have been doing because we do need to see progress on both the release of the hostages and also aid being able to get in.

We are deeply concerned about the loss of life and the diminishing safe space for Palestinians in Gaza.

SARAH FERGUSON:  Let me ask you this: Does the US and its allies, obviously including Australia, have any influence at all in how the Netanyahu Government is conducting this war?

PENNY WONG:  Well, what I can do is to use Australia's respected voice to advocate for peace. We are not a major power, a great power in the Middle East, we have not a participant, we are not obviously part of the Middle East and what countries ultimately do and what various states or entities do is a matter for them, but we are a respected voice, and we should use it to advocate that pathway to peace.

SARAH FERGUSON:  Notwithstanding the genuine outrage that occurred over Hamas massacres in October, is there any point at which the Australian Government might consider sanctions against Israel for the conduct of the war?

PENNY WONG:  Look, I wouldn't speculate on sanctions for any country. What we, from the beginning, I have been consistent. You might recall the very first time I said anything about this, I called for restraint and protection of civilian lives.

I was criticised for that by Mr Dutton, but that should be Australia's consistent position. We accept, as a matter of international law, Israel's right to defend itself.

SARAH FERGUSON:  I think that's the question. Is there a line in your understanding of international law that Israel cannot cross in its pursuit of what it describes as total war?

PENNY WONG:  Well, I would say that the international community has made its views crystal-clear, including with the vote at the United Nations, that Australia, Canada, New Zealand were part of, calling for an international humanitarian ceasefire.

SARAH FERGUSON:  It is not making it clear where the line is?

PENNY WONG:  I would say that the international community has made its position clear, when Canada, Australia, and New Zealand issued a joint statement speaking of how alarmed we are at the diminishing safe space for Palestinians and again calling on Israel to ensure that it protects civilian lives.

SARAH FERGUSON:  I think that question about the safe space is very important right now and particularly given the phrase used by Netanyahu that is continuing with total war, when we know that that total war is currently focused on that area in the south where a very large number of people have moved.

So it is inevitable that we are going to see continued very high casualties if the war continues in that area.

PENNY WONG:  Which is why we support, and we urge there to be the negotiations that are required for an immediate humanitarian ceasefire and steps towards a sustainable ceasefire.

SARAH FERGUSON:  Essentially is the rest of the world powerless to protect Palestinian civilians.

PENNY WONG:  Well, what I would say is it is a dreadful, I have described it as a disastrous humanitarian crisis in Gaza.

Ultimately what we need to see brokered is a humanitarian ceasefire and we need a pathway to peace which includes a pathway to a two-state solution.

One of the things I would say that struck me when I was in the Middle East on my recent visit was that the truth of this, that there is no end to the conflict in the Middle East without a Palestinian state alongside an Israeli state.

SARAH FERGUSON:  I want to move on to UNRWA. What is the evidence that you have sighted about the involvement of UNRWA staff in the attacks?

PENNY WONG:  Well, I make two points: There are two, I think irrefutable truths about UNRWA.

The first is it is necessary to provide support and assistance to Palestinians in Gaza.

SARAH FERGUSON:  Right now, I think UNRWA is says that they can keep going in the current setup until end of February?

PENNY WONG:  There is not another organisation which can provide humanitarian assistance on the ground in the way UNRWA does. So truth number one.

Truth number two is that the allegations are serious, and they can't simply be ignored.

SARAH FERGUSON:  So when you say they are serious, what are you basing that on?

PENNY WONG:  I will come could that. Serious that they can't be ignored.

Now we have spoken to the Israelis, and we have asked for further evidence but I think it is clear from UNRWA's own actions that they regard these allegations as serious.

They have taken action, including terminating the employment of a number of employees and putting in place an inquiry, in fact, there are two inquiries.

I have spoken in fact today to Mr Lazzarini, Philippe Lazzarini who is the head of UNRWA and also to Sigrid Kaag who is the UN coordinator for assistance.

SARAH FERGUSON:  And what did Mr Lazzarini tell you today?

PENNY WONG:  Well, why I wanted to speak to them was because we do want to find a way through.

SARAH FERGUSON:  I just want to stay with the basis for your decision. You spoke to him today. Are you now in possession of all the information you need that underpins your decision?

PENNY WONG:  No, we have sought it but the allegations are serious enough and UNRWA has recognised that, by its own actions.

SARAH FERGUSON:  Indeed. Those allegations have now been in the world for a number of days.

PENNY WONG:  Yes.

SARAH FERGUSON:  And you took a very serious decision along with other countries to suspend our aid.

PENNY WONG:  Hang on, let's be careful. Be careful. We have already doubled...

SARAH FERGUSON:  Yes, but you suspended ...

PENNY WONG:  Let me finish. I know that some wish to, I've seen some of the misinformation that has been put out by some other politicians.

We doubled the operating assistance to UNRWA, okay, and that was already provided. I announced $6 million for the, I suppose the Flash Appeal.

Subsequently we saw these allegations. I, along with other countries, made a decision and it is a decision I made, to pause that because the allegations were serious and because UNRWA itself recognised that those allegations were serious.

SARAH FERGUSON:  If I may, I just want to come back to the point I'm making with which is that decision was made a number of days ago. We know there are reports now ...

PENNY WONG:  And we have sought further information from the Israelis.

SARAH FERGUSON:  So is that good enough? We are days past that information being raised. We are now seeing reports including from the UK overnight that the information contained in the dossier that was provided by the Israelis is flimsy.

What is it that you know that makes you confident that you made the right decision?

PENNY WONG:  Because UNRWA itself acknowledged that those allegations were serious, and I think it is incumbent upon me as Australia's Foreign Minister to ensure that every dollar of aid that we provide is being used for the appropriate purposes.

But if there is, if the Israelis, I haven't seen all of the British reporting that you describe, and there is a lot of reporting, but if the Israelis, the Israelis can answer questions about their evidence. It's not my evidence that...

PENNY WONG:  But when you spoke to Mr Lazzarini today, presumably he is in full possession of the information that was made available, did you ask him for it?

PENNY WONG:  Well, we've asked the Israelis for it.

SARAH FERGUSON:  Did you ask Mr Lazzarini for it?

PENNY WONG:  He and I are focused on, he and I are focused on, my conversation with him was focused on how we work through these issues so that confidence can be restored not just for Australia...

SARAH FERGUSON:  I understand ...

PENNY WONG:  Let me finish.

SARAH FERGUSON:  I understand that is very important.

PENNY WONG:  That is actually what is important to people on the ground, is how do we restore confidence, so Australia, Canada, Japan and others are in a position to provide further funding to UNRWA. That is what matters.

SARAH FERGUSON:  And in a moment we will come quickly to the question of the restoration of the funding, but I want to stay with my question which is you spoke to the head of UNRWA today. He has already initiated an internal review. He has the information. Why wouldn't you ask him for it?

PENNY WONG:  Well, we have asked the Israelis for it.

SARAH FERGUSON:  But you spoke to the head of UNRWA. He has it.

PENNY WONG:  Hang on, hang on, well, he may. I don't know what he has.

SARAH FERGUSON:  He made the decision to...

PENNY WONG:  Well, what he and I have discussed is that the two processes that he has undertaken and we will stay in close contact with UNRWA about those processes.

SARAH FERGUSON:  Let's just then, to conclude on this, I want to ask you a question about that because UNRWA have said in the last few days, I think, that they have enough funding to last until the end of February or the beginning of March.

The funding that has been suspended amounts to half of their entire funding which brings me back to the question, they are facing a very serious situation and you're not in full possession of the facts?

PENNY WONG:  Well, no, we're not. But what I would say is the primary concern is making sure that other donors, particularly those who have not provided their next round of operational funding, core funding, that that confidence can be attained before the end of the month.

SARAH FERGUSON:  So are you going to wait for those two investigations?

PENNY WONG:  No, we have already provided that funding previously, so there are other donors whose next round of operational funding is required and so it's in UNRWA's interests for there to be sufficient confidence for those decisions to be made.

SARAH FERGUSON:  Penny Wong, thank you very much indeed for joining us.

PENNY WONG:  Good to speak with you.

SARAH FERGUSON:  Thank you.