06 | Fireworks with Sam Reid and Michael Lucas

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Evelyn: Darling, listen, I want to warn you, there are curse words ahead. Also, if you haven't watched the episode, what are you doing? Go now and watch it. We wouldn't want things to get spoiled now, would we?  

Helen: Good evening, I'm Helen Norville.  

Dale: And I'm Dale Jennings. You are watching News at Six. 

Lisa: I'm Lisa Millar.  

Leigh: And I'm Leigh Sales, and we're here to tell you that .. 

Lisa and Leigh: A great newsreader is forever. 

Leigh: Oh my god, who would hire us as newsreaders when we can't even deliver a line like that properly?  

Lisa: I don't know, but that is the most perfect line. It was just brilliant.  

Leigh: This was Dale's episode. What a tour de force. And in a very happy coincidence, we're going to be joined this episode by Sam Reid, the actor who plays Dale.  

Lisa: He is fantastic in this. And Michael Lucas as well is going to pop back because this is sadly the season finale. It's called Fireworks.  

Leigh: Okay so let's do a quick recap of the episode. Finally, we are at the big day, January 26th, 1988, the bicentenary. 

Lisa: Yeah. And in this full circle moment from episode one. Dale is a solo guest on Gerry's show talking about Helen and him separating.  

Leigh: Helen has asked Noelene to be her producer in Washington. Big opportunity.  

Lisa: And a newly single Dale gets his own big, flashy, and also very empty bachelor pad.  

Leigh: Helen has a drug filled sexy bender with little Chuck at his bachelor pad. 

Lisa: And Gerry gets caught with his pants down. Um, he asks Dale to back him, but Dale basically throws him under the bus.  

Leigh: And we've got another two marriage proposals.  

Lisa: I’m counting them. 

Leigh: Have we ever seen a TV show with this many marriage proposals? This is number three and four. Rob asks Noelene in front of her family, watching Olivia, Olivia Newton John on the TV, and then her dad stomps out of the room, and then Helen asks Dale to get married. It's just marriage proposals everywhere. 

Lisa: Oh, it's too much. And Dale, mm, wow, Dale.  

Dale: Because they are gonna keep turning to me. Every night for decades. For the rest of your life, Donna. Because a great newsreader is forever.  

Leigh: I mean, I think he completely has come into his own in this episode. He's finally seemed to realise his authority. It's like the authority that a newsreader has to have on the set, Dale is now manifesting that in his own life, but in a kind of scary way.  

Lisa: I think we started seeing it in early episodes, I totally agree, but this was the episode that just had us on the edge of our seats watching Dale become someone who, I just kept thinking, you are ruthless. 

Dale: Gerry, you're right, he should be off the desk.  

Dennis: Oh Jesus Christ, we said this yesterday.  

Dale: Yeah, well I'm hearing more and more about his behaviour.  

Lisa: In the way he was talking to Lindsay, in the way he just put the bus over Gerry. Everything about him, I thought, you are now the stronger, greater, nastier character. And I did not see it coming.  

Leigh: Yeah, well, it's, it's kind of, I mean, he has been evolving. I guess the question is, is any of the original Dale still left in there? Or has he become sort of fully like a transactional person like a Lindsay?  

Lisa: I do think there is still that inner naivety and inner insecurity, and I feel like we saw it when he went into the house and he’d bought this house and his mum, I mean, God, let's talk about Dale's mother right, at some point. But he's bought this house. It's like a museum, his mum says. And then he kind of looks in the mirror and you think, he's trying to be confident, but there's still a bit of the other Dale about it.  

And can I just say, you know, the other side of this, of course, as we see Dale become stronger, Helen is utterly unravelling to the point that I made a note while we're watching it, thinking, is Helen, when she's having that final conversation with Noelene and Noelene says, I'm not coming with you. And Helen just says, well, I'll walk out with you then. It was like she was on drugs. She was just another person altogether. And I thought we have completely transposed these two characters now. One is strong, one is weak.  

Helen: Thank you so very much for taking the time to tell me all that, in person. Congratulations again.  

Noelene: Bye. 

Leigh: Oh, that's interesting, because I had a question for you, which is, like, Helen has seized some control over her life, because she's refused to go to air with the Kay Walters story, and then she's walked out of the network, and then she's got a dream gig lined up with another network. 

So why is she so out of control and having the sexy bender with little Charlie? Is it just stress release? Because it seemed like she was asserting some control, and then she's clearly out of control.  

Lisa: Well, I don't know what the significance of that scene was with the, the drunken, drugged night kind of flashy memory scene. I wasn't quite sure what to make of that, but I don't think her strength is... I think her strength is ebbing away in every minute through this episode. And then, oh my God, another terrible, dreadful proposal. We've had so many bad marriage proposals through this.  

Dale: What if we offer her an engagement. So this is my second attempt at this, and I didn't think it could go any worse. 

Helen: Okay, Dale, so your second attempt at what?  

Dale: Let me just, let me just...  

Helen: Can I just... I feel like I...  

Dale: No, no, no, let me just, let me just get through this, because I've had the words in my head for days.  

Rob: (Attempting to propose in Korean) 

Noelene: Yes.  

Rob: Yeah?  

Noelene: Yes.  

Helen: Dale Jennings. Will you marry me?  

Leigh: So many of them. Yeah, at this stage all that's left, all that's left now is for Lindsay to propose to Jean and we can all be done with it. 

Lisa: Can I go back to a couple of other things? Yes. This is one thing I want to run by you. Tell me what you think here. Okay. We hear a lot about the Prince and Princess of Wales. That's right. Through this whole series. Well, guess what? They were the golden couple, remember? And on that trip to Australia, there were rumours about them breaking up and breaking down. And I thought, oh yeah, okay, this is a little subtle thing for us here. We keep getting thrown these tidbits about The Golden Couple, Prince and Princess of Wales, but they weren't, and neither are Dale and Helen. And so I felt like it was starting to take us  down that road.  

Leigh: Oh, that's a very... 

Lisa: Or am I going too deep? I don't know. 

Leigh: Look, that, look, that was pretty deep, but that is a very interesting piece of analysis, which had completely gone over my head because I wasn't really paying that much attention to the Charles and Di subplot, but you're quite right that it's that when the appearance is one thing, but the actual, you know, what's going on behind the scenes is the other. 

I think that the moment, just to go back to Dale, the moment where I first sort of thought, Oh, you're starting to surprise me with who you are was really early in the episode when Gerry rang him to ask for help. I was actually quite surprised that Dale showed up at his house. I thought Dale would find a way to squib it, because of course, what's happening to Gerry is Dale's worst nightmare. 

That's everything that Dale fears happening to him. So the fact that he went anywhere near it, I found kind of interesting.  

Lisa: Well, that's why I think we still see those other sides of Dale, so I think that was his niceness, his friendship, his loyalty, and because Gerry was one of the few people who knew about it. 

But then, the other side of it is Dale, the nasty Dale, when he rings Tim and the cameraman that he'd had the fling with, and how awkward a phone call was that when he says, it's Dale. Dale Jennings. And Tim says, yeah, I don't know any other Dales. But Tim, Tim refuses to lie about his sexuality and he won't lie to anyone about Dale. And I thought that was really interesting too. And that was when it flicked and Dale then decided he had to put the knife into Gerry. 

Leigh: Yeah. But I mean, I, Gerry had put the knife in first actually, because the story about Dale and Tim making its way to the gossip columnist. I thought that was a beautiful bit of shelving from episode one when Gerry told Dale that the way he's kept that woman on side is to be transactional. 

Lisa: I hadn't realised that.  

Leigh: Yes, and to give her the better story than what she's already found. So she runs stuff that will keep him safe. So Gerry sold out Dale because he was the only one who knew about Tim the cameraman.  

Lisa: Genius. 

Leigh: So it's just this world of, and you know, that seed was planted right back in episode one. And then we see it kind of come to fruition where they're in this world where you will just throw people under the bus, kind of like politics as well.  

Um, hey, to go back to the line that we said at the start, you know, a great newsreader is forever. What do you think about that line? Do you think that's true that a great newsreader is forever? 

Lisa: No, only newsreaders think that, possibly, I would say, with the most respect for the newsreaders we know, who are wonderful people.  

But I do think it was Geoff, you know, who'd rung Dale to sort of say, you did a stellar job, mate, and I underestimated you. I thought that was really interesting as well, because there is Geoff finally stepping away from, you know, the mantle. Like he's gone and he's passing it on to Dale. But I think it's a sign of the times. Surely that's the eighties.  

Leigh: Yeah. I thought that was a thing of the times where actually, you know, in 1998, um, well, if you were a, an authoritative male newsreader, well, you, you know, that was a very powerful job because the audiences for those shows were just absolutely massive, you know, more than a million people would be watching those programs every night.  

So those people did have a lot of authority and, you know, and if you look at the big newsreaders in the US, some of them were doing those jobs for 30 plus years. Whereas I think today, because there's so many more options for viewers and fewer and fewer people all the time, watch those evening news bulletins that used to be really powerful, newsreaders today just don't have the power of those, but we're past the era of the newsreader as being the all powerful, all mighty kind of figure.

Um, but probably when Dale was thinking that in 1988, he was probably right that you got a job like that. If you make a good fist of it, you are going to be one of the most trusted people in the country. 

Lisa: Yeah well, tik Tok was a long way off. Wasn't it? Good luck to you, Dale. 

We want to get into the big scene that we absolutely love with Dennis and Lindsay, but before we go there, can we just talk about the development of Noelene as well?  

Leigh: Oh yeah. 

Lisa:  Because I think her character is just rock solid and I love her. First of all, I love the love between Noelene and Rob that we don't see with anyone else. 

So there's a real caring between the two of them that I really enjoy. I also never really believed that Helen supported Noelene in a way that was truly support, I always felt like her comments were only halfway there. And you know, really if Noelene was going to start challenging Helen that, you know, Helen would not accept it. 

So I was so glad when Noelene didn't go to America with Helen. But what do you think? Where do you think we leave Noelene as a character?  

Leigh: Well that's interesting that you, you raise her choosing to not go to America because I wanted to get your take on that. Because I don't think it's as simple as putting family first or putting Rob first. Like she clearly, she does want to be with Rob and she does from, come from this close traditional Korean family. So I'm sure that would be part of it, but don't forget that she's been working with Helen for years and she knows what Helen's like.  

And you know, when Lindsay rang. That other network, um, to try to rat-fuck Helen. And he said basically, look, she's unpredictable and so on. You know, that is true. I remember in season one she'd be pacing around on the set when they were calling 10 seconds to air. You cannot operate like that and it's the producer who usually wears it.  

So I like to think that Noelene, who's actually probably one of the smartest, most competent people there is being a bit more strategic and thinking, I don't want to have to go and deal with Helen's BS and have to clean up the mess. I think I can advance myself a bit better by staying here. 

Lisa: We'd better jump into that incredible scene between Dennis and Lindsay in the edit suite.  

Lindsay: Jesus mate, you do not realise how lucky you've been. There was no other bloke in Australian television that would have given you the chances I gave you. A piss weak, half arsed, coffee boy in a bad acrylic vest. 

Lisa: Talk me through your thoughts about it.  

Leigh: Okay, that's one of my favourite scenes in the entire season. And it's, it's, say, Lindsay says to Dennis, have you been doing deals with little Chuck behind my back? And it's right off the back of the scene where he's eviscerated Helen, and Helen's kind of crumbled as people often do with Lindsay, but, but on this occasion, Dennis retaliates and punches him in the face. 

So, um, it was.... a couple of things struck me. One was the contrast to Helen and that, um, and that Dennis has actually stood up for himself. But then the other is just Lindsay's inherent nature. And I've worked with people like this in journalism and they're people who thrive on conflict, um, and bullying. 

And I'm sure it's not particular to journalism, but they only respect basically people who will stand up to them. That's what they really respect. They don't respect people they can crush. They try to crush people, but if you let them crush you, they don't respect you. So they don't, they don't like attempts at conciliation or backdowns, they perceive that as a sign of weakness. 

So interestingly, you think Dennis is going to get the sack in that he's done his dash, but actually he comes out of it with Lindsay's enhanced respect. Cause that's the only language Lindsay understands, conflict and violence.  

Lisa: Not just that, he gets an extra 10 K cause he tells Lindsay, he got 50 grand for rat fucking him. And then Lindsay says, well, I'll give you 60. But here's another thing. And I wonder if you notice this. Do you know what was on the TV screens behind them when he threw the punch and they were having the fight?  

Leigh: Oh my God. No, I did not.  

Lisa: Fireworks. It was the fireworks of the bicentennial, It was the end of the day. And that is why I love this show because they have thought of everything.  

Leigh: Oh, that's classic. I mean, look, I just adore Lindsay, even though he's just so horrifying, but I just think he's such a great character. But can I go to one of the other characters I love, which is Evelyn? So Evelyn gives Helen the tip off about the gossip columnist chasing Dale in exchange because she's grateful that Helen spiked the Kay story. Do we think that Evelyn's a changed woman?  

Lisa: No, only just because of her daughter. That's it. She's not really. And you know, um, Helen responded and said, I did that for Kay, not for you. And so I think that Evelyn will continue to be Evelyn because she has spent her whole life being Mrs. Geoff Walters. You do not change that overnight. 

Leigh: No, but I guess because of that, I think it's changed Geoff, right? Because we saw that scene.  

Lisa: Oh, Geoff's changed.  

Leigh: Geoff's changed, right? So therefore, because Evelyn defines herself in relation to Geoff, because all she is is Mrs. Geoff Walters, I assume that perhaps Evelyn's going to have to change because Geoff's changing. 

So Geoff's, you know, we saw that scene where Geoff, almost like a caricature of himself in, in, I think it was episode five, banging on the door of Kay going, as your father and your landlord, I demand you open this door. And then he's clearly, we hear him give the monologue. Log where he says, um, I'm stepping down from my job 'cause I have to dedicate myself to my family. You know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I think Evelyn would have to kind of change, but it's interesting.  

Lisa: No, don't agree.  

Leigh: Okay. It's, it's interesting because I don't imagine that Evelyn doesn't love her daughter. I'm sure she does love her daughter, but there's just that toxic dynamic that she's vying with her daughter for Geoff’s favour. 

Lisa: Um, I think she loves her daughter when her daughter is being the kind of daughter that anyone of the Walters standing would want to have. And so she wants Kay to get better because she wants to not have that reputational damage on the family. I think that's what drives it. I don't, I do not think that Evelyn is going to change. I think she will stay evil.  

And can I just, as we, you know, sort of circle back round when you talk about Dale and how he changed. Really early on in this episode, Lindsay, when, when Dale says, initially he backs Gerry and he says, I'm not going on air unless, you know, he's with me.  

And Lindsay sniggers and says, he's turning into Helen. And I think that's a really significant line because it's kind of right at the start of that episode. And here we are right at the end. And basically there he is on the desk by himself, ruling the roost.  

Dale: You see Helen's left. Geoff stepped back. I'm the face of the news now. Millions of people turn to me for stability and assurance because they trust me. And that relationship is very important to me. It could be very valuable to you. Because they are going to keep turning to me. Every night for decades.  

Leigh: You know, Dale just kind of blows you away with that final monologue. And I am so happy to say that actor Sam Reid is here with us to talk through it all. Sam, you absolutely nailed that. Congratulations. 

Sam:  Oh, thank you. That's a weird way to start.  

Leigh: And now we will give you some tips on news reading and we will put on our serious news reading voices. Talk us through how you prep for something like that. It's so intense watching it.  

Sam: I suppose Dale has always sort of believed that the pinnacle of everything that  represents stability and assuredness and the kind of like archetype of what it is to be a man and what it is to be a voice of authority is represented in this newsreader kind of form. 

And so I think, you know, when he's saying those things, he's sort of talking to himself as well. He's bigging himself up. Um, talking himself into, um, this idea that he's going to become this thing. He's going to be the king of news, as, um, as Geoff's kind of like coined for himself. And, and at the same time, we kind of refer to him as Dead Dale, because at the same time he's sort of selling himself out. 

Um, he's kind of, you know, naive, um, sort of heart on his sleeve, sensitive self. And he's. rejecting that part of himself and he's becoming this statuesque carbon copy of what he thinks a stable human being might be.  

Leigh: And as you say, maybe in a mistaken view that, um, just because you present as calm and authoritative and assured and on top of everything on telly, that that's going to somehow magically translate into your overall life. And, uh, sadly, Lisa and I are here to tell you that is not the case. 

Lisa: That is true. Sam, I'm curious what you think of Dale's ambitions as a kid, as a teenager. Like, why do you think he wanted to become a journalist? Was it to be that kind of character that was the stable deliverer of news to an entire country?  

Sam: Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think he had a sort of tumultuous... childhood. His father wasn't around. He really looked to the news as a place of stability and calm, um, and he was obsessed with it. But he was also obsessed with what those news readers represented. But what I find really interesting, though, about a kid who was obsessed with the news, is that, and how it relates to today and potentially myself, is that, you know, someone who was watching the news all the time is also, incredibly anxious. I mean, he's a very anxious, nervous, worried. He's obviously got his own personal issues. But, I wonder if all of that, you know, extreme information that he was taking in all the time kind of fed into this kind of like, uh, really worried and slightly inept person.  

Leigh: I love the idea that if you shared the backstory of, you know, Dale's father and you said, look, I, I visualized him as an astronaut. Michael Lucas would be listening, going, God damn it. We have to build a space station for episode season three. Bloody Sam! 

Sam: Let me tell you my ideas.  

Lisa: Hey, Sam, you raised your mum. So I just, I mean, I just want to not your mum, Dale's mum. I just want to dive straight into that because one of the scenes in this final episode that I really thought was quite telling was walking into this big, empty, brand new house and Dale is so happy and his mum is not, clearly. And it just goes to the heart of their problematic relationship. You tell us what you think about it.  

Sam: Well, is he happy? I don't know. I'm not sure. Yeah, I'm not sure if he's happy in that moment, but he's kind of achieving what he thinks he's supposed to be achieving. It's a kind of interesting point in the story because, you know, he's seen Gerry's house. 

He's seen how much money you can make in that circumstance. Um, but we haven't got to the point where he's started throwing people under the bus to maintain that position. So, I think it's kind of like the house and the big empty house represents Dale now. He's kind of like a big empty house. There's nothing in it. 

He doesn't have Helen. He doesn't have a relationship. He doesn't really have any friends, which I always think about with Dale. He's only got his mum. It's, you know, the only person who he calls is his mum.  

He has Gerry, and Gerry is a friend, but it's not long after Dale moves into that house that Gerry actually calls him, asking him for help in a situation that Dale feels incredibly uncomfortable to be able to help him in.  

So, it's a good turning point in a way, that house scene, because his mum, he can sense that she's not happy with his choice in his life and she can, he can sense that she's kind of disapproving.  And he sort of says, well, I know that you think that I should have something else, but this is what I want. So it's kind of, yeah, it's a, it's a fork in the road for the first time, I think between the two of them. 

Particularly where you saw Dale with his mum in season one, you know, where he gets the job and he calls his mum first. It's just so sweet and, and sad, um, really, cause he's got no one else to call.  

Leigh: See, it's interesting because everything you're raising does create a very potentially interesting arc for Dale in a season three, because people who get into roles like this very prominent and they have a lot of people, you know, who love them and strangers come up to you in the street and tell you how awesome you are. If you don't have people around you that you have real relationships with that can ground you, you can really rapidly spiral out of control. And yeah.. 

Lisa:  See, I'm the one that grounds Leigh Sales. When someone comes up in the street and says, Hey, Salesy, you're fantastic. I say, no, you're not.  

Sam: Do you say that in front of the person or wait until they've left? 

Leigh: Oh, she says it in front of me, she's incredibly rude. How did you develop a style for Dale as a newsreader? Because often people who present the news don't speak as they do in reality. And particularly in the 1980s, um, there was a very formal stiff style of news presenting.  

Sam: Yeah. Well, I mean, that was the fun part. And that's why I love working with Emma Freeman, particularly because we're always talking about this specific issue, which is the public and the private mask. And so, you know, with newsreading is such a fantastic way of doing it because obviously it's such a mask because you can't invest too much of your personality. You have to have a sort of a blank personality.  

And I would love to pick your guys brain actually about that because, you know, there's some really interesting things about when information is coming at you and what you have to do to slow your brain down to be able to process it. And I've always wondered if somebody has ever fed you a line in the auto prompt, um, that you weren't expecting and you found yourself reading it and how..  

Lisa: All the time. Well, I mean, you know, three hours of live television with News Breakfast, there are things that pop up in the autocue that sometimes I'll hesitate. Cause I'll think. I don't think that's right. I think that's a mistake. So do I follow the direction of the producer and think that the autocue is God, or do I make the call and not read it? 

And in fact, we had one of those experiences just this morning. So it is pretty fascinating.  

Sam: Did you read it?  

Lisa: No, we corrected it, on the run. 

Leigh: But that's, that's a voice of experience.  

Sam: Yeah. And I think Dale would read it and I think that's the thing is he's so afraid he doesn't and Helen wouldn't. Helen would get up, I mean, and leave as she, as she does. 

Um, but, and, and Dale would read it. Um, but in terms of like those two personalities I really wanted to try and find a way to make them as different as possible. So he's, when you see him on the desk, he's really trying to be somebody else. And you see that actually quite a lot through the season and last season, he's always practicing that persona. 

And you can see it kind of takes a lot out of him because he's nothing like the guy who he tries to present on the news.  

Lisa: But here's the irony, Sam, is that you are becoming like Helen. Lindsay even says it as almost admiringly that, Oh, he's just like Helen.  

Sam: Yeah. I mean, the difference is, I suppose, that Helen....Helen... and Dale started off like this. I think Dale had a lot of integrity, but he also has a lot of ambition. And Helen is ambitious, but I think she's also getting incredibly frustrated by the lack of integrity that the stories that they're having to report on are. Whereas Dale, when he starts standing up with the Lynus story and with the minutes for Diana, but he's also trying to...get something for Helen because he loves Helen and he wants Helen to be happy. 

I mean he believes in those in the in the story, but I think he's more he's more driven by Helen's approval and then when he stands up to Lindsay again at the end, he's protecting himself via protecting Gerry.  

So unfortunately, I don't know if he's quite at the level of Helen. I think Helen is quite an extraordinary character with a huge capacity for empathy. I think Dale is an empathetic character in his day to day life, but in the news? I mean, he didn't want to show the dead bodies on the news, I can't really sell himself short.  

Leigh: No, but I mean, he did, there's a moment in one of the episodes where, it's when they're talking about running the Kay interview. Everyone's kind of talking about, you know, shining a light on the scourge of heroin or whatever. And the Dale character says something like, um, it's a famous family in the middle of a scandal. 

And he, he actually is the one person who just calls it and sums up in very few words exactly what that story is.  

Sam: Yeah. 

Leigh: And that we talk about Helen and the empathy and that, that, that is a kind of type of journalist that you see in a newsroom, but also the strategic straight talking person who spots what is the heart of this story. 

Those are the people I think, and you know, I'd be interested to know what you think Lisa, but they're the ones who often rise to be say the news director because they know here's the heart of it. That this is why people are going to watch this story. And it's interesting that it's one of the few moments where you see Dale take, make quite a confident assertion about something and it's right. And it's as, as his character is becoming more confident.  

Sam: Yeah. But then Helen says, you know, what would you do? And we kind of echo that moment a lot throughout the series. Like what would I do? What do I do? And we, and Helen and Dale are asking themselves and asking each other that question, but Helen says, what do I do? And Dale says... nothing. And I think that's the first time when you go, wait a second, who's this guy?  

Leigh: Um, Lisa, let me ask you a quick question. Who would you, if you were the executive producer of a show, which reporter would you rather have on your team, Helen or Dale?  

Lisa: Helen.  

Leigh: Oh, I'd rather have Dale.  

Lisa: Oh really? 

Leigh: Oh, Helen's just so too unreliable.  

Lisa: Oh no, come on, if you're going to get, if you need someone to get the yarn, it's going to be Helen that gets it.  

Leigh: But I could, I could mould Dale, Dale gives me something to work with.  

Sam: Dale, Dale will do anything, he'll do everything that you want, and Helen is unpredictable.  

Lisa: Can I talk about Dale's sexuality and how that storyline goes and also that scene in the nightclub when Dale goes out with Tim and Gerry and you've got that great Bronski Beat music and all the rest of it and then he ends up, he's gone home with someone. Just, when you're reading the script and you know what's happening with Dale, what's going through your mind?  

Sam: Well, I mean, we, we spent a long time trying to work out what was the right thing to do in that, um, sequence. What Tim was to Dale and what Tim is to Dale, and trying to work out how they would reunite, because I knew that they really, they really did want them to reunite. 

Like, Dale's sexuality is something that we talk about all the time. We have a fantastic intimacy coordinator on the show. There wasn't much intimacy that happened in the show. 

Leigh: No. 

Lisa: Oh, yeah.  

Sam: But, but there was a lot of psychological intimacy and trying to be sensitive around what Dale's actual sexuality is, is kind of really important to me because I think he doesn't know. And I think that's kind of important to be able to give that character space to be able to let him not know. When you find himself in a kind of one night stand situation, when he finds himself kind of using alcohol as a way to have any kind of connection whatsoever, and he wakes up in the next, in the morning, and, you know, it's not that he's kind of, and this is what I really wanted to make sure was clear, or that we were trying to show that we were investigating that, is not that he's necessarily acting out on repressed sexual urges to be with a man. He's also acting out on repressed intimacy in general.  

Leigh: And repressed just human emotion because of his job, which is requiring him to suppress, and as you say, to have this mask like robotic kind of persona.  

Sam: And it's why the character of, um, Gerry was really important because Gerry, cause you know, in episode one, you think, okay, Dale's come out to Helen and said, you know, I'm, I've been with men, but I'm also in love with you. I don't really know what I am. I don't know who I am. I don't, I'm a, I'm a big mess, you know, like I'm not a news reader.  

I'm not, I'm not this clean guy that we can put in front of the news and Helen says, you know, I love you. I love you. Um, I've forgotten what she said. 

Leigh: For who you are. Exactly who you are or something.  

Sam: Yeah, whatever that beautiful line is. And then, you know, we see, see them in season two in episode one, and you'd think he'd get to the point where if a man hits on him, he can kind of say that and it can be comfortable between them. Um, but Helen isn't comfortable with that. 

And immediately he feels a sort of secret prejudice from her because she's immediately assuming, just because a man hit on him, that, that they want to be together. And so then you sense that there is still a lot of friction under the table, um, between the two of them. And the relationship with Gerry means that he can be able to talk about these things without it being a threat to his, you know, core relationship.  

Lisa: Is there a prop from the 80s that you would have liked to have taken from the set?  

Sam: Every time we do this show, I become obsessed with the televisions. There's something so relaxing about those old TVs. I just think I look at them and I think I wish, you know, and I wish I could have everything on VHS. 

I wish, I actually wish I could live in that period of time, of technology.  

Leigh: Well, very happily, Dale, you're in the ABC studios and you'll find a great deal of 1970s and 80s equipment around the place. 

Sam: I love that you spoke to my inner Dale. No, you know what? If you can give me some of those old TVs, I'd be very happy because they're so expensive. 

Every time I, yeah, I look into it all the time. Um, every time I'm doing on the newsreader, like my eBay search history is just like old 1980s TVs and they all sell for thousands and thousands of dollars.  

Lisa: I'm just on the phone to security actually, just to make sure. 

Sam: I can actually see a very nice old record player. 

Lisa: Uh oh. 

Leigh: Sam, it has been super fun having you come in. We know that you're a very busy person, so thank you. We really appreciate it.  

Sam: No worries. Thanks very much. 

Leigh: Alright, well now that we've had security escort Sam from the building, we can get onto Michael Lucas and find out if he's developed any 1980s kitsch memorabilia addictions as well.  

Lisa: Well, I've got to say, Sam, you know, comes across as Mr. Nice Guy, but Michael Lucas, well done for turning Dale into a ruthless journalist. Did you think about whether you were actually going to do that?  

Michael: Oh, yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, not when I first, uh, conceived of Dale back in the very, very beginning, but definitely through this season, the elements of it changed and it definitely, it got darker as it went along and as we were shooting and discussions with Sam and the end point did keep getting darker. 

One of the first scenes we shot weirdly in the whole series was the bit where Dale comes into his new home and he's wandering around. And I remember Emma Freeman was ablaze after shooting that because she's like, I see the end of the series, and I see that this is a series about how Dale has to shut himself down. 

Lisa: You talk about that scene walking into the house, his new house. I love it. But it also again raised for me questions about his relationship with his mother. Do we ever get to a place where we kind of understand that?  

Michael: Look, I agree with you. There is so much to mine there. And actually one of the agonies about the series as a whole, but also this episode, I remember the first cut of this episode was about 84 minutes or something like that. So what we see now is hopefully a very tight, coherent, pacey final episode.  

Leigh: Yeah it was. 

Michael: But there was so much material. There's a, there's a lot to mine and the expectations she put on him, the limitations, the... everything about that would be another, you know, you could, I could devote strings of episodes to it. So I hope it can be explored even more. 

Leigh: The whole way along, I was wondering, do Dale and Helen have sex? Because there are no explicit sex scenes.  

Michael: I think generally in the, just the style of the overall show, we, we haven't ended up really showing sex scenes. And that's true of, I mean, Dale has a one night stand and he doesn't even really remember in this episode. 

We don't see that. We don't, we never really saw Helen and Charlie. You get the sense that that was a very sexual relationship, but we didn't actually show it.  And the same with Helen and Dale. I mean, in my mind they do. If you go back in the first season, you know, the first time they slept with each other, I think it's a pretty clear implication that they did. 

But, but part of me also thinks it's, you know, maybe an aspect of Dale, even in, in sort of any circumstance, that constricted, that really constricted feeling that he has.  

Lisa: Well, he didn't hug his mum, did he? I mean, there was no kind of physical-ness.  

Michael: No, exactly.  

Leigh: Can we talk about one of my other favourite characters along with um, Evelyn? 

Um, well, oh jeez, why do I love these just terrible people? Lindsay, I mean, I'm terrified of him, but I just... I love him. And I just think William McInnes is, I described him in a different podcast as like visceral, like, I just feel like I can smell him. I can smell the red wine that he had at lunch. He's just a terrifying individual. 

Lisa: I'm just glad he survived the entire series.  

Leigh: Oh, kept thinking he was going to have a heart attack with that level of aggro that, that William McInnes can rev up to.  

Michael: Totally. I remember when his name first came up in the casting and we all agreed  that we needed someone who would just be absolutely terrifying to have yell at you. 

And there was something about, I hadn't actually ever seen him perform, but I could just tell that William. To have him yell at you would be truly earth shaking, but he's brought so much to it. I mean, he's a great writer as well. And so many of the little, like the Bernard King references and the Danny LaRue references and I mean, can we swear on this podcast? 

Lisa: Yeah. 

Michael: I don't know how you'll get through it. Can we? Oh yeah. Like, I mean, he'll just add these things. Like the, the speeches will be there, but then he'll, he'll sort of add in things like, you know. I don't care who you suck or you fuck, and you're like, oh my god, where's this coming from? 

Lisa: I love that line! I wondered what, who is in the writer's room when that is written? 

Michael: No, well, that, that was, that was, It's straight out of McInnes on the day. It's funny actually, because you look at the script and Anna and Sam are both prone to sort of saying a lot less because they prefer to just convey it without the dialogue. And then you get to a William scene and it grows. It just grows so much with all these references and he'll do alts and he's incredibly vivid. 

It's such an event when he comes to set. And he, because we were shooting other locations first, it was a couple of weeks into this shoot before he arrived. And you could just feel the difference once William was, had joined the ensemble and was part of it. Apart from anything else, you could feel the difference because everyone can hear it. 

You can be out at unit in the car park and you can hear when William is performing.  

Lisa: So I reckon my favourite scene of all, and God, there's so many to choose from, from the entire series. But Lindsay and Dennis having it out in the edit suite and the punch to Lindsay and then Lindsay, the bully being bullied in a way, and suddenly he admires this person who stood up to him. And I just think that is the most incredible transition of characters that I saw through the whole series.  

Michael: Oh, that's so good to hear. That had really stumped us for a long time. How do like resolve? Because we sort of backed them into a corner right at the end of the last episode. 

He's found out that his, you know, his underling has been working against him and they've got to have it out. And I want there to be some sort of resolution. And I was really struggling. And then the producer, Jo Werner, I remember it just sort of saying, I reckon he should just punch him. And I, I loved it because, I mean, I remember there was that famous footage of those executives having the punch on.. 

Leigh: David Gyngell and James Packer. 

Michael: Yes. I mean, I'm not a puncher. I don't think I've ever. thrown a punch outside of a, like, fitness class, if I'm honest, and I don't understand that. But I remember discussing it at the time, and even in the process of writing this, just trying to understand it in a weird way that could be this really toxic way that they express all their frustration and sort of somehow move on from it. 

It's not behaviour that I would ever endorse, but it made sense in that moment. And also, yeah, that transition towards weirdly Lindsay respects him afterwards and he's actually quite impressed by it and delighted, delighted he got a punch in the face.  

Leigh: It made sense because it fit with Lindsay's character, which again is a personality type that you do come across in the media, which is people who thrive on conflict and on power plays. 

It was interesting too, the proximity of that scene in relation to Lindsay berating Helen when she comes in to attempt to stand up to him and then she just completely crumbles at Lindsay's onslaught and then very rapidly he goes on the attack with Dennis and then Dennis punches him in the face and the person that he respects, obviously, is not the person that he was victorious over, it's the person who stood up against him. Because he likes, he perceives, Lindsay, I think, himself as strong, or people I've dealt with like this, they think they're strong, so all they respect in other people is strength and other people who can bully. And so I feel like the fact that Dennis actually's socked it to him, makes him think, Oh, Dennis has got a bit more get up and go than I thought that he had. And so now I have a bit more respect for him.  

And it's a real, um, I don't know if you've seen it, Lisa, but it's a real kind of hyper conflict driven personality type that, that can thrive in this industry.  

Lisa: Well, can I just say on News Breakfast, we have such a lovey dovey atmosphere that one of the producers this morning said to another producer, okay, that's great. Love you. Have a great life. And I thought, that is not what you used to hear in an eighties newsroom. 

Leigh: Although have a great life. If you heard that in an eighties newsroom, you'd assume you were getting the sack because you'd stuffed up the rolling of the autocue. It would have been screamed into your face and you wouldn't be coming back.  

Lisa: Oh, Michael, please tell me that you're bringing everyone back for a series three. 

Michael: Oh, look, I, I mean, I would love to, I hope to. I mean, it's not confirmed yet, but, um, yeah, fingers crossed. I mean, I did, I think. You always tend to think dramatically in terms of three acts, and I know I did with Helen and Dale, and so, you know, for that reason, more than any, I mean I. It's not that I feel like I've got to the end of this series, and I've said all that I can say. In fact, I kind of revelled in leaving it in a bit of a dark place.  

I sometimes used to joke that this is The Empire Strikes Back, um, for those who are really aware of, um, aware of the Star Wars original franchise.  

Leigh: So what, season 3's Return of the Jedi, please tell me there's not going to be some Ewoks in it. Ewoks in the newsroom, what? As long as you don't bring in Jar Jar Binks, that'll be the bloody end of you.  

Michael: I defend the Ewoks, but not Jar Jar Binks but yeah, no, I definitely, there's got, there's got to, uh. Yeah, there's certainly much more to travel and I, and I feel like, you know, with Helen, I mean, what's going to happen to her and, and, and, and Dale, I mean, I'm just desperate to know for myself. And I know all the writers and everyone feel the same way. What's, what's next? Uh, so fingers crossed, fingers crossed, we'll find out.  

Lisa: Well, Helen's gone to Washington, so.. 

Leigh: We've got some theories.  

Lisa: Yeah, we've got some theories. We can help you with that, mate.  

Leigh: Michael, it's been such a treat to have you come in and help us wrap up, um, the season, and we've just absolutely loved the show and we've loved talking to you and everyone involved with it. It's just been a hoot.  

Michael: And I can't tell you how thrilling and sort of slightly Alice through the looking glass strange it is to go through this process that began with interviewing you on like my little tape recorder and then finally to end up with the podcast that you are hosting is.... I still can't believe it's happening even though I'm right in the middle of experiencing it right now. So thank you both for doing it.  

Lisa: We love that meta kind of feel. 

Leigh: Wow, that is a wrap on season two of the Newsreader and the Newsreader podcast. I cannot tell you how much fun I've had doing this with you.  

Lisa: I think this is some of the slickest television we have seen on Australian TV sets. I've loved it. Salesy, it's been a ball and thanks to all the creators of this amazing work. 

Leigh: Oh, and for coming in to talk to us and give us their time. Cause it's just so fascinating to get those firsthand insights from everybody about what was actually going on.

So if you've missed any of the podcast episodes this season, you can head to the ABC listen app. Of course you can head to iView if you need to rewatch anything, or if you just want to go from scratch. I reckon Lisa, you should take us out with a nice cheesy newsreader goodbye. 

Lisa: Well, Miss Sales, it'd be my pleasure. That's it for this evening. Good night. 

Leigh: Perfect. 

Lisa: This podcast is recorded on the lands of the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation and the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation.  

Leigh: Thanks to our producer, Michele Weekes.  

Lisa: And our executive producer, Alex Lollback.  

Leigh: Sound engineer is Angela Grant and the manager of ABC Podcasts is Monique Bowley.  

Dale: I'm Dale Jennings. This has been News at Six. Good night, Australia.  

Floor Manager: And we're out!