Would you work for $2.37 an hour?

Kurt Fearnley: We've produced this podcast on Awabakal Land and we've spoken to people living and working on Aboriginal land across Australia. We pay our respects to the elders, past and present.

Kurt Fearnley: Hi! I'm Kurt Fearnley, Paralympian and proud person with a disability.

Sarah Shands: And I'm Sarah Shands, mum of a child with a disability and I'm not going to lie, sometimes it's hard.

Gillian Stewart: Sometimes I feel like I just don't want to be different. That I just want to be like everyone who doesn't have a disability

Kurt Fearnley: Yep, sometimes it is really hard.

Sarah Shands: Okay, It's Friday afternoon — no one's really working, we're all watching the clock to tick over to 5pm. Yay! Let's go to the pub. It's time to get all our work gripes off our chest. What do you complain about? Well for people with disability, it's more than just a smelly fridge that needs to be cleaned out. Or how annoying the boss is. Prue Hawkins is a family lawyer from WA. She's funny, clever, and quick-witted. But for a long time she was also unemployed. So she did what anyone else would do and started up her own practice.

Prue Hawkins: This was I literally am going to starve to death. Let's be fair, my parents would never actually let me starve to death. But, you know, I would just it was the I was years of hunting, hunting, hunting and just, you know, when you go into an interview and you shake the employers hand, and literally the first sentence that they say to you is, oh, yeah, my wife was in a wheelchair for two years before she died. We're like, where do you go from there? So yeah, the experience of, um of going through the employment world was just a nightmare. For me.

Kurt Fearnley: I remember going and getting a job and the first drinks that I have out. I couldn't get into the venue, because they celebrated in an inaccessible place.

Prue Hawkins: Yeah, that doesn't sound common at all. Okay, how dare you?! Yeah, that happens all the time. And there was a lawyer that was looking for someone with my level of experience. And we got along famously, and it was amazing. And late, it was pretty much come and have a coffee and the job's yours. But I couldn't actually get in the building. It was an old, sort of like a converted house. So that was probably one of the most frustrating experiences I've ever had. Because I was like, Oh, my God, if I could just fly, we'd be fine.

Kurt Fearnley: You don't understand how many times I've turned up to a job where there's five or six steps and the people look at it and go, lucky you crawled Kokoda, these steps will be a breeze.

Prue Hawkins: Oh, yeah. Okay, mate. Yeah, well, you know that yeah, that that's because that was a choice you made to crawl Kokoda. Not because it was your only bloody option. My favourite because obviously, you know, you're you're in a very different chair to me, is when people go oh, will lift you and just the look of dread on my face because my wheelchair is 150 kilos, and my bones break real easy. I'm like, there is no way in hell. Anyone is lifting me up the stairs. But thanks for playing. It's hilarious

Kurt Fearnley: And good intentions don't win you employment.

Prue Hawkins: Oh, very kind.

Kurt Fearnley: As you can probably tell, if you have a disability then getting a job is pretty difficult, with the unemployment rate twice that of people without disability. Anne Kavagnah from the University of Melbourne has been looking into the impact of unemployment on people with a disability.

Anne Kavanagh: So employment is, is one of the most powerful determinants of health and mental health. And well being, and it's, it's partly to do with, you know, the income you need income to live a, you know, a good life. It's also part of your identity, and part of a sense of meaning in your life, and all of those things linked to people's mental health. And there's a really strong body of literature that's shown how important how bad unemployment is for people's health. Mental health in particular, but our work work we've done over a number of years now actually shows that employment is even more beneficial for the health of people with disabilities and people without disabilities.

Sarah Shands: The Victorian Advocacy League for Individuals with Disability or VALID facilitates a program where self- advocates speak to residents of group homes about their experiences — specifically how they speak up if something isn't right. The program employs 15 people to do this work and Gregory Tucker is part of the team

Gregory Tucker: We interviewing a resident, we ask them questions like, what it's like living in their home Or if they feel safe in their home or they, what they do in the community

Sarah Shands: And why is this work that you and the team at VALID do important?

Gregory Tucker: We just want to make sure that everybody is happy, and we hope everyone is okay. And if nothing is okay or anything wrong we can try and help them.

Sarah Shands: But Gregory also works at an Australian Disability Enterprise.

Gregory Tucker: When I first started at my ADE job I was only getting between $2.37 and $2.50 an hour. Well, I was told that if I keep working hard, or if I raise my employment level high enough, then my pay goes up every six months or so. So I guess what I'm feeling is that I'm hoping that eventually that I reach the minimum wage.

Sarah Shands: There's nothing illegal about how Gregory is being paid. There is an incredibly complex system in place that supports this segregated employment of people with intellectual disabilities. But just because it's been done like this in the past, doesn't mean it's right.

Anne Kavanagh: We all know that a crappy job can be really crappy experience. So jobs where you have little control over the kind of work that you do, you're working unreasonable hours, there are demands on you, and you have little control over it, you're not paid well, relative to someone else, you're harassed in the workplace, or whatever all those experiences are, they are really bad for your health as well. And some work we've done on that also shows that one disabled people are more likely to be in those poorer quality jobs.

Kurt Ferarnley: And working in a segregated workforce unfortunately increases isolation. Catherine McAlpine is the the CEO at Inclusion Australia, the peak body representing people with intellectual disability.

Catherine McAlpine: What happens is, particularly for people with an intellectual disability is, they're segregated from the age of five. Now, what that does is it teaches people from a very young age that people with disability, particularly people with an intellectual disability belong over there.

Kurt Fearnley: And that entrenches an attitude that they belong in a separate system.

Catherine McAlpine: At a very practical level, people don't meet people with an intellectual disability, they don't get to know them, but don't make friends with them. And what we know both from experience and from the research is that attitudinal change happens with personal contact, contact. So when you have a relationship with someone,that's when your attitude changes.

Kurt Fearnley: There is an entire system in place that supports the segregation of people with intellectual disabilities. It starts with the belief that people with intellectual disabilities belong over there and out of the mainstream workforce. And it's supported by heavily subsidised wages for jobs that aren't necessarily right for the individual. Fiona Mckenzie is the Chairperson of Council for Intellectual Disability. She has a job she loves and is valued by her employer and has an intellectual disability.

Fiona Mckenzie: I mean, when you put on a supermarket shirt for the first time, it feels like 10 feet tall. And it's like you've got a new adventure ahead of you. And it's like a step in the right direction. I work on cash registers. So, I went through the pandemic, so I'm known as an essential worker. So I don't know, I don't even know that that even existed until the pandemic hit. My first job at Coles, was working in bakery. And I just, I just love working.

Sarah Shands: Fiona has had some challenges in her workplace but with the right support has been able to navigate them.

Fiona Mckenzie: I've had, I had a line manager who pretty much made my life h ell. But it was like, he made me feel uncomfortable working in the department. And he didn't want to know about my disability, didn't know what I didn't really want to get to know me what I was capable of doing. I was going home cranky, which I didn't want to do but when things when communication breaks down it really affects your the way you want to work. And he made me feel like I wasn't meant to be in that department.

Kurt Fearnley: Fiona managed to find her way through this difficult time at work and has recently clocked 14 years at Coles. And she's not alone in facing issues in the workplace. Gavin Burner has faced similar attitudinal barriers at his job at a community centre helping with activities for other people with disabilities.

Gavin Burner: I started to volunteer in different places because I believe to be a volunteer it keeps you alert. So I would plan to be there for a while and leave, but they keep on saying I will employ me. And agreement was that I have to go and study. I finished up doing level three in disability. From that I've got a job. But the problem was, it was like 10 they offered me that $10 an hour.

Sarah Shands: The consequences for paying someone $10 per hour is that they live in poverty, just surviving day to day. And yes, they may receive Centrelink or NDIS supports, but it's not enough to break the poverty cycle. Anne Kavanagh again.

Anne Kavanagh: Let's think about the barriers for employment. You can't get away from structural problems about the lack of job, not being able to get the job not having a house that you can, you know, that you can call home that you can, you know, that's a fundamental prerequisite to getting a job. You can't deal with the endemic discrimination that people have in employing people with disabilities.

Sarah Shands: This endemic discrimination is something most people with disability have experienced, if not all. Dr Dinesh Palipana found his way to disability in his twenties.

Dr Dinesh Palipana: So it was the 31st of January 2010. You never forget the day or the time. It was about 8pm. It's a rainy day. I was driving from my parents place in Brisbane, back to Gold Coast. There were roadworks happening on the highway. I drove up just to this dark stretch of road. There were bits of roadworks, like you could still see the signs on the side of the road. And a came up to something really dark, like patch of water or oil or something and And as soon as I hit it, my car lost control and spun and spun and spun. And when it landed, I realised I couldn't move anymore, or feel my body.

Kurt Fearnley: At the time of his accident he was at University studying medicine. But had to fight to stay at uni.

Dr Dinesh Palipana: And I was told that there was a meeting at that time with some of the doctors that were involved in my care. And one of the doctors present in that meeting said that they all said that it would be ludicrous for me to attempt to become a doctor again. Hearing something like that, it's heartbreaking. And you can't, you know, it takes a fair bit of effort to ignore that. And it's hurtful, actually. It's pretty hurtful to talk about. One of the parallels I think about is, you know, racism, because one of the reasons racism is so hurtful. It's because people are attacking something that you cannot change about yourself. Something that's just a part of you. And it's the same with disability, I think If someone's attacking you, or saying that you can't do something or saying that to be a certain way because of your physical characteristics, then that's a pretty hurtful thing.

Kurt Fearnley: The open job market doesn't work for everyone. Micro enterprises are small businesses that a person with a disability can set up and run with the right support. In Adelaide, The Community Living Project, helps people with disability start and manage a micro enterprise. Project manager Wendy Butler can explain more.

Wendy Butler: We start off with what we call a discovery phase. And that's when we first get to know somebody really well. What are their interests and skills and passions?

Sarah Shands: Two years ago Jenny Tucker was unable to get out of bed, feeling like most things in her life were a chore. But when she connected with Wendy and the micro enterprise team that all changed.

Jenny Tucker: I had a bit of social phobia, because I didn't meet lots of people. And I spent most a lot of the time in bed and just not speaking to people. So I was really wary of meeting new people. And what do I say, I don't do anything. Now I'm comfortable talking to people, people wave at me as they drive past and pop in and I don't have that social phobia anymore. I've met so many people in the neighbourhood.

Sarah Shands: Micro enterprises work really well for some people with disability because they're shaped around a person's interest. So Jenny enjoyed gardening and lots of different ideas were thrown around before she landed on creating a Garden Kitchen.

Jenny Tucker: It all started fairley slowly really. I was just going to have a little stall out the front and get rid of my extra zucchinis and tomatoes or sell them to the local Cafes. I've always been growing things and now my children have left home. I'm only one person so I couldn't eat everything. It evolved from I've planted too many seedlings. It's been an organic process of how it's happened.

Kurt Fearnley: Jenny is just one example of what can be achieved with a micro enterprise. There are lawn mowing businesses, photographers, bakers you name it and there is probably a micro enterprise. And that's because people with disability have varied interests and are passionate about different things. And if we take the time to understand what these are then so much is possible.

Sarah Shands: There's no quick fix to getting people with disability into meaningful jobs. But there are some brilliant people in the disability community that have spent years working on ways of changing this. One idea that Catherine McAlpine has starts with our kids.

Catering McAlpine: Education is the starting point, like we need to resolve that issue, because that's your long term attitude, no change will be will be resolved there when people actually understand that in our community, there are lots of people with an intellectual disability on lots of people who are different, and that difference is fine.

Kurt Fearnley: So by creating inclusive schools we will be showing our kids that difference is difference and doesn't mean you can't work alongside someone who has a disability.

Catherine McAlpine: There are some systemic issues that need to be addressed so that people with an intellectual disability are as free and have the same opportunities to contribute to the economic well being of the country as everyone else, and to enjoy the benefits that work gives us all, you know, relationships with other people and a feeling of community and a feeling of contribution. And, of course, a salary to take home.

Kurt Fearnley: Being able to go into a workplace and be seen and treated the same as your non-disabled peers That is. You know what that is? It's being an Australian. It's buying into what this country has to offer. Finding your place in this world where you belong and your valued as you are.

Sarah Shands: Up next on Let Us In…

Emma Weatherly: And l was feeling like air travel actually could be really easy. Through these massive airports in America where you know, L.A or Orlando. Where you have to take a tram to transfer between terminals. But that wasn't even hard. But then arriving home, you get arriving to Sydney and that's where it starts again. Where you treated differently.

Kurt Fearnley: That's up next on Let Us In. If you like what you've heard, why don't you leave us a review and then share this episode far and wide.

Kurt Fearnley: This podcast has been produced with the support of the Melbourne Disability Institute and the University of Melbourne. The Executive Producer is Sarah Shands of Point 5 Productions. Fact checking by Lisa Herbert. Big thanks to Blythe Moore, Phil Ashley Brown, Simon Scoble and Nicole Bond. Sound engineer is Grant Wolter.